Comments on: In Defense of the EDL http://calebposner.com/2009/10/13/in-defense-of-the-ed/ Thu, 10 Jun 2010 05:11:36 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.com/ By: Caleb Posner http://calebposner.com/2009/10/13/in-defense-of-the-ed/#comment-179 Caleb Posner Thu, 15 Oct 2009 04:19:50 +0000 http://calebposner.com/?p=596#comment-179 I appreciate you acknowledging that your information here is incomplete, and that you are going more off of first impression than thorough research. What I would say is that, all things considered, to draw the parallel you did does a disservice to the victims of the KKK. Understand that they were (and remain) a racist organization that employed violence based on arbitrary criteria against parties who had done no wrong. Here, the ELD is not using violence in any case, and of equal consequence, limits profoundly who they even take issue with. They are not anti----Muslim. Rather, they oppose those who want to replace British law with Islamic law, and who are by any reasonable standard dangerous to society based on their sympathies for a barbaric legal and social code, and who support acts of terrorism that have claimed British lives. I appreciate you acknowledging that your information here is incomplete, and that you are going more off of first impression than thorough research. What I would say is that, all things considered, to draw the parallel you did does a disservice to the victims of the KKK. Understand that they were (and remain) a racist organization that employed violence based on arbitrary criteria against parties who had done no wrong. Here, the ELD is not using violence in any case, and of equal consequence, limits profoundly who they even take issue with. They are not anti—-Muslim. Rather, they oppose those who want to replace British law with Islamic law, and who are by any reasonable standard dangerous to society based on their sympathies for a barbaric legal and social code, and who support acts of terrorism that have claimed British lives.

]]> By: Jacob http://calebposner.com/2009/10/13/in-defense-of-the-ed/#comment-178 Jacob Thu, 15 Oct 2009 03:49:37 +0000 http://calebposner.com/?p=596#comment-178 So, only through peaceful actions do they attempt to remove Islamic fundamentalists from the area? It still sits uneasy with me, but hey, that's only because I don't understand it entirely. As for my comparison to the KKK...Anyone can create a justification why someone is bad is all I was saying. The KKK felt that the Blacks were bad for their neighborhood, this group feels that Islamic fundamentalists are bad for their neighborhoods. Whether they are or are not is irrelevant. The two groups feel similar thoughts. What is important is how the ELD acts. So, only through peaceful actions do they attempt to remove Islamic fundamentalists from the area? It still sits uneasy with me, but hey, that’s only because I don’t understand it entirely. As for my comparison to the KKK…Anyone can create a justification why someone is bad is all I was saying. The KKK felt that the Blacks were bad for their neighborhood, this group feels that Islamic fundamentalists are bad for their neighborhoods. Whether they are or are not is irrelevant. The two groups feel similar thoughts. What is important is how the ELD acts.

]]> By: Caleb Posner http://calebposner.com/2009/10/13/in-defense-of-the-ed/#comment-177 Caleb Posner Thu, 15 Oct 2009 02:16:32 +0000 http://calebposner.com/?p=596#comment-177 First, a belief that you are superior to another need not be a matter of xenophobia. Indeed, even if it were a matter of finding one culture preferable to another, I believe that to be a question of personal values that carries with it not bigoted connotations. But leaving that aside for a moment, your comparison to the KKK is entirely out of line. Ignoring the fact that their membership rules allow Muslims to join so long as they are integrated into British society, there is an important point difference with respect to violence. Namely, the reject it. They have even vowed to avoid returning to cities where others instigated violence, for the sole purpose of upholding the law and civil order. First, a belief that you are superior to another need not be a matter of xenophobia. Indeed, even if it were a matter of finding one culture preferable to another, I believe that to be a question of personal values that carries with it not bigoted connotations. But leaving that aside for a moment, your comparison to the KKK is entirely out of line. Ignoring the fact that their membership rules allow Muslims to join so long as they are integrated into British society, there is an important point difference with respect to violence. Namely, the reject it. They have even vowed to avoid returning to cities where others instigated violence, for the sole purpose of upholding the law and civil order.

]]> By: Jacob http://calebposner.com/2009/10/13/in-defense-of-the-ed/#comment-176 Jacob Wed, 14 Oct 2009 21:41:08 +0000 http://calebposner.com/?p=596#comment-176 I fault groups that think that they are "better" than another. What I take from this, and hey, I may be wrong is this: "We feel that we are better than Islamic fundamentalists, but they are really starting to spread into our area, so we're going to do whatever we can to keep them out." Sounds like something the KKK would have said back in the 1860s and 70s. I could be wrong, but that's how I hear it. I fault groups that think that they are “better” than another. What I take from this, and hey, I may be wrong is this: “We feel that we are better than Islamic fundamentalists, but they are really starting to spread into our area, so we’re going to do whatever we can to keep them out.” Sounds like something the KKK would have said back in the 1860s and 70s. I could be wrong, but that’s how I hear it.

]]> By: Caleb Posner http://calebposner.com/2009/10/13/in-defense-of-the-ed/#comment-175 Caleb Posner Wed, 14 Oct 2009 20:40:06 +0000 http://calebposner.com/?p=596#comment-175 Also, I received the following incoherent response via email from a fellow claiming to represent the Jewish Defense League in the UK, and the email address and chapter leadership would seem to check out with the information on the JDL's international website. Before I post it (without corrections to spelling or grammar), I would like to note two things. First, the JDL of the present day is in no way similar to that founded by Rabbi Meir Kahane, and any attempts to link the two are entirely invalid. Kahanists of every stripe reject the current JDL. Second, I wish to note that the "facts" contained in the email do not check out. The author treats the ELD as though it is the same as the BNP. This ignores the fact that both groups have routinely refused to identify with one another, have plenty of negative things to say about each other, and have rather different aims. So, while I post this to express what is the official view of the JDL UK, I do so after having noted that it contains errors in fact, and is the product of an invalid mutation of the original Jewish Defense League. <blockquote>We are extreamly depressed, and disheartened at the many comments posted on Islamic blogs & editorials in the Muslim Press (on-line & newspapers), incorrectly suggesting, that the holding of the Israeli flag, by racist anglo-saxons at edl demonstrations, equates to Jewish or Zionist leadership, or other involvement in the revolting english defence league. I am sure that this is a minority view, but it seems to be a growing one, still voiced by many, and published un-challenged by muslims. This is ignorant, and offensive to all Jews, of all persuasions and tribes. I was so appalled & depressed that any Muslim can think that there is any sort of Jewish, Israeli, or Zionist influence, element, or even leadership within the nazi organisation the english defence league. They are made up fundementaly from members of the bnp (which bans Jews from joining their racist anglo-saxon group), and past members of combat 18 & the national front; both openly nazi groups in england, active in the 1970s & 1980s. At a recent edl & bnp "fun day" they were burning the Israeli flag. When not bringing it to their vile demonstrations, these facists place the flag of Israel on a toilet floor, to be used as an alternative to the urinal in thier members only pub. There are no Jews demonstrating with them, only against them. Supporters of Israel have to accept that the policies of many Israeli politicians, and the behaviour of many many Israeli soldiers does nothing to help distinguish those of us that support the land that we would call Judea, from those that want to persecute Muslims - but I would say any Zioinst that cannot understand & have a sincere desire for a comparable homeland for the Palastinians, is not a true Zionist, but is lost to the righteous path that can see both Israel & Palastine flourish together. The only reason the edl bring our flag to their revolting demonstations, is the misguided belief that it antagonises Muslims - I do not actualy believe that it even occured to these racist anglo-saxons that Muslims would take this as signifying that there were Jews within, or leading the edl - that is a revolting and hugely misguided suggestion, and imensely offensive & repulsive to all decent Jews, whether Zionists, or not. The tone of many comments from those claiming to be Muslims, suggesting that there is a Jewish connection with the edl, based soley on a moronic anglo-saxon bringing an Israeli flag to one demonstration, are no different to the nazi propoganda of the 1940s. Although proposterous these views can be very dangerous, as they can give the edl what they crave, division between the two peoples they despise the most. Children of Abaraham/Ibrahim we must always remember our intertwined culture & faith, that distinguishes us from these anglo-saxon neanderthals at the edl. Please do not beleive for one single solitary second that any Jew, of any persuasion would either be invloved with these animals, or desire to see our flag in their filthy hands. In our position at JDL, being particularily in contact with the right wing of British Jewry, and Zionists worldwide, if we see/read anything other than total condemnation of the edl's perverse use of Israel's flag, we will argue, protest and educate that it is unacceptable, and must not be tolerated by any Jew or any persuasion. Salaam Shalom, Jacob Pres LL.B National Director JDL.UK</blockquote> Also, I received the following incoherent response via email from a fellow claiming to represent the Jewish Defense League in the UK, and the email address and chapter leadership would seem to check out with the information on the JDL’s international website. Before I post it (without corrections to spelling or grammar), I would like to note two things. First, the JDL of the present day is in no way similar to that founded by Rabbi Meir Kahane, and any attempts to link the two are entirely invalid. Kahanists of every stripe reject the current JDL. Second, I wish to note that the “facts” contained in the email do not check out. The author treats the ELD as though it is the same as the BNP. This ignores the fact that both groups have routinely refused to identify with one another, have plenty of negative things to say about each other, and have rather different aims. So, while I post this to express what is the official view of the JDL UK, I do so after having noted that it contains errors in fact, and is the product of an invalid mutation of the original Jewish Defense League.

We are extreamly depressed, and disheartened at the many comments posted on Islamic blogs & editorials in the Muslim Press (on-line & newspapers), incorrectly suggesting, that the holding of the Israeli flag, by racist anglo-saxons at edl demonstrations, equates to Jewish or Zionist leadership, or other involvement in the revolting english defence league.
I am sure that this is a minority view, but it seems to be a growing one, still voiced by many, and published un-challenged by muslims. This is ignorant, and offensive to all Jews, of all persuasions and tribes.
I was so appalled & depressed that any Muslim can think that there is any sort of Jewish, Israeli, or Zionist influence, element, or even leadership within the nazi organisation the english defence league. They are made up fundementaly from members of the bnp (which bans Jews from joining their racist anglo-saxon group), and past members of combat 18 & the national front; both openly nazi groups in england, active in the 1970s & 1980s.
At a recent edl & bnp “fun day” they were burning the Israeli flag. When not bringing it to their vile demonstrations, these facists place the flag of Israel on a toilet floor, to be used as an alternative to the urinal in thier members only pub. There are no Jews demonstrating with them, only against them.
Supporters of Israel have to accept that the policies of many Israeli
politicians, and the behaviour of many many Israeli soldiers does nothing to help distinguish those of us that support the land that we would call Judea, from those that want to persecute Muslims – but I would say any Zioinst that cannot understand & have a sincere desire for a comparable homeland for the Palastinians, is not a true Zionist, but is lost to the righteous path that can see both Israel & Palastine flourish together.
The only reason the edl bring our flag to their revolting demonstations, is the misguided belief that it antagonises Muslims – I do not actualy believe that it even occured to these racist anglo-saxons that Muslims would take this as signifying that there were Jews within, or leading the edl – that is a revolting and hugely misguided suggestion, and imensely offensive & repulsive to all decent Jews, whether Zionists, or not.
The tone of many comments from those claiming to be Muslims, suggesting that there is a Jewish connection with the edl, based soley on a moronic anglo-saxon bringing an Israeli flag to one demonstration, are no different to the nazi propoganda of the 1940s. Although proposterous these views can be very dangerous, as they can give the edl what they crave, division between the two peoples they despise the most.
Children of Abaraham/Ibrahim we must always remember our intertwined
culture & faith, that distinguishes us from these anglo-saxon neanderthals at the edl.
Please do not beleive for one single solitary second that any Jew,
of any persuasion would either be invloved with these animals, or desire to see our flag in their filthy hands.
In our position at JDL, being particularily in contact with the right wing of British Jewry, and Zionists worldwide, if we see/read anything other than total condemnation of the edl’s perverse use of Israel’s flag, we will argue, protest and educate that it is unacceptable, and must not be tolerated by any Jew or any persuasion.

Salaam Shalom,

Jacob Pres LL.B
National Director JDL.UK

]]> By: Caleb Posner http://calebposner.com/2009/10/13/in-defense-of-the-ed/#comment-174 Caleb Posner Wed, 14 Oct 2009 20:33:40 +0000 http://calebposner.com/?p=596#comment-174 I think you are making a fundamental mistake in faulting a group for narrow aims. That they do not also address rhetorically extreme Christians is not a sign of endorsement, nor does it suggest there are xenophobic motivations for their anti-Islamist motivations. It simply means that the membership is united around a different goal, and that they have decided to allow other organizations to focus their efforts on dealing with the problem you mention. I think you are making a fundamental mistake in faulting a group for narrow aims. That they do not also address rhetorically extreme Christians is not a sign of endorsement, nor does it suggest there are xenophobic motivations for their anti-Islamist motivations. It simply means that the membership is united around a different goal, and that they have decided to allow other organizations to focus their efforts on dealing with the problem you mention.

]]> By: Jacob http://calebposner.com/2009/10/13/in-defense-of-the-ed/#comment-173 Jacob Wed, 14 Oct 2009 15:53:27 +0000 http://calebposner.com/?p=596#comment-173 It's quite contradictory for the EDL to say we are, "ordinary, non-racist citizens of England and supporters who have had enough of being treated as second-class citizens to the Jihadis in our own country." They say they are non-racist, but then on the flip side, they are against preachers who are extreme. Would they be against a Christian church who was arguing that, perhaps, the Prime Minister needed to be killed? Or, is it strictly that they are Islamic Jihadis that promotes the "they are bad and we need to be against them!" I can't agree with a group that says, "we are non-racist, but we're against this group of people." It’s quite contradictory for the EDL to say we are, “ordinary, non-racist citizens of England and supporters who have had enough of being treated as second-class citizens to the Jihadis in our own country.” They say they are non-racist, but then on the flip side, they are against preachers who are extreme. Would they be against a Christian church who was arguing that, perhaps, the Prime Minister needed to be killed? Or, is it strictly that they are Islamic Jihadis that promotes the “they are bad and we need to be against them!” I can’t agree with a group that says, “we are non-racist, but we’re against this group of people.”

]]>